Curse

M @ T · Sep 09, 2009, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

you guys just dont want sins to kick more ass than they already do, which is understandable. on the other hand, true sins like me and the topic starter cannot get enough. MOOOOAR POWAAAAAAA!!!

All I can say to you is that you are proving the fact that you're a troll and biased. Oh yes,

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Jesus Christ, your trolling physically hurts my brain.

nuff said there Cytherea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Unlike some people, I'm not biased and enjoy actual balance.

Exactly.

@ LegendaryBattousai

Quote:

* Way of the Assassin: Stance. 5 Energy12 Recharge time. For 0...7...9 seconds you attack 33% faster while wielding daggers.

The critical % was removed so that the attack speed can be a constant 33%. This is much more appealing to use than the current way it is, seeing as you can easily go warrior secondary in order to have an IAS.

This sounds like Frenzy without a double damage con or Flail without the speed reduction. Hmmz, doesn't sound so bad..
EDIT: It must be linked to Crit, as most good IAS stances are linked to a primary attribute.

Quote:

* Death Blossom: Dual Attack. 5 Energy8 Recharge time. Deals +30 damage to target. Deals an additional +20 damage to target foe and adjacent foes if target was enchanted. Must follow Offhand.

Increased recharge to make it less spamable and abusable by R/A's. Deals damage comparable to Blades of Steel if target is enchanted with the added bonus of AoE in that situation. This is in balance with Blades of Steel and someone could easily take either one. This provides for more diversity in Assassin builds.

It's not the recharge that R/A abuse, it's the fact that they spam 1/2c dagger attacks. Like mentioned below,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zera Fang

Is supposed to be spammable, R/As aren't abusing that, they're abusing the fact that they can spam 1/2 second attack skills continuously.

Now,

Quote:

* Temple Strike: Offhand Attack. 5 Energy12 Recharge time. Deals +30 Damage. Causes knock-down if target is moving or attacking. (No attack req).

Currently we have two elite offhand attacks that cause Dazed. Having a skill similar to an elite "Golden Phoenix Strike" without the enchantment requirement which causes knockdown will be an interesting change. Will definitely provide for more diverse assassin combos and an alternative to using an elite shadow step.

I like this one. Perhaps even add "Causes KD if target is moving, attacking or casting", not sure though. it's like an elite Bull's.

Quote:

* Shadow Prison: 5 Energy¼ Activation time20 Recharge time. Same description. No Aftercast. Fails if Crit Strikes < 4.

Reduced Energy to make it better than Dark Prison. Recharge set back to 20 as it can no longer be used by warriors to spike with.

+

Quote:

* Black Lotus Strike: Offhand Attack 5 Energy8 Recharge time. You gain +5 Energy. Deals +30 damage. Must strike a hexed foe. (No attack other req)

The main change in this is to revert it back from being a lead attack to being an offhand attack that does not require a lead attack to precede it. This was a key skill in many combos and was never overpowered itself. Bar compression will allow for more utility on the Assassin bar.

= Old SP sin and with no aftercast which is again OP imo.

Quote:

* Shadow Refuge: Enchantment 5 Energy1 Activation time8 Recharge time. For 4 seconds you have +5...9...10 Health Regeneration and conditions end 90% faster. Ends if you attack.

Shadow Refuge can now be used as a "pre-prot" against conditions, useful for engaging splits or escaping bases.

I haven't ever seen a pre prot on a damage dealer, or even worst on a melee. Besides this sounds like Peace and Harmony with lower recharge and no effect against hexes with an added bonus of +health regeneration. Like mentioned below again,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zera Fang

No, sins don't need a 'pre-prot' against conditions. They have "Assassin's Remedy", which works just fine.

In general you wish for no aftercast in shadow stepping unless you have crit strikes 4 and more. Meaning sins can go oldschool. I'm not really against that, haven't given it a lot of thought on it, but SP+BLS is a no-no. And lastly, most, if not all the attack skills you mentioned, being elite or not, have +30 to +50 damage. Not any melee class has so many +30> skills. Specially if you dual attack with a 5e 8r unblockable enchant striping +100 damage skill..

LegendaryBattousai · Sep 10, 2009, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zera Fang

Is supposed to be spammable, R/As aren't abusing that, they're abusing the fact that they can spam 1/2 second attack skills continuously. They're better sins than sins are, which is why they are OP and need nerfed.

Spamming = no skill. Having a recharge = making decisions = takes thought = separates good players from bad players = having "skill".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zera Fang

No, sins don't need a 'pre-prot' against conditions. They have "Assassin's Remedy", which works just fine.

Assassin's Remedy is terrible for many reasons.

The idea is removing the heal from Shadow Refuge to add in a "preprot" for conditions; alternatively you could have it remove one condition on its end- either way. Its meant to help you leave a base against a snare allowing for more aggressive splitting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zera Fang

Are you KIDDING ME! Combine with Deadly Paradox and you could maintain it constantly in PvE, leaving the sin to destroy mesmers/necros without some extra-class protection. No, you're retarded, go away.

First of all, I clearly marked it as the (PvP) version. If you can't read, don't post in my thread, I don't appreciate the insults caused by your lack of reading skills.

Secondly, it can be stripped, and you still take damage while it is up, and deadly paradox disables your attack skills. I don't see any way it could be abused; however if it became a problem you could easily add in a "reduces damage by 33%" clause and make it exclusively for escaping a base.

Lastly, most Mesmers and Necros have enchantment removal. Even if it was a change to the PvE skill, it would just be removed; and hard mode basic attacks would still kill you quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zera Fang

And were you here when sins were just rolling people because they didn't have an aftercast on their shadow steps? It was the worst time to play in RA because it was assured that you would come across at least one of those builds every match and if you didn't have specific protections against it you were SCREWED. No, you're entire ideology here that sins need buffed is wrong. They're powerful enough as is, sure, some of their elites need looked at and fine tuned to make them more effective, but otherwise they're fine. Stop trying to make them into some Hyper-ninja-uber-deadly-lookIpwnedu bullshit.

Completely not signed.

Well let me first point out that sins were not rolling people because they didn't have an aftercast on their shadow step. Allow me to repeat again that the only reason the original shadow prison bar had any success was the combination of Blades of Steel and Impale dealing 360 damage in the course of 1 second. The rest of the bar was never a problem and it was nerfed as a bandaid fix to the real problem.

Also, I didn't ask for your signature, nor do I care about how fun RA is. Please realize that the intention of this thread is to comment on these skill change ideas with criticisms and perhaps input to make them better changes, or even more changes. That is, it isn't a place for you to overexaggerate and mis-read and state your unsupported opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

This sounds like Frenzy without a double damage con or Flail without the speed reduction. Hmmz, doesn't sound so bad..
EDIT: It must be linked to Crit, as most good IAS stances are linked to a primary attribute.

it is, dont worry :3

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

It's not the recharge that R/A abuse, it's the fact that they spam 1/2c dagger attacks.

That makes absolutely no sense, reread what you wrote.

R/A's can't "spam" 1/2c dagger attacks if they are recharging - solved that problem real quick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

Old SP sin and with no aftercast which is again OP imo.

Once again, SP sin was overpowered for a different reason. In a meta where Word Of Heal and Patient Spirit is as strong as it is, it is even less of a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

I haven't ever seen a pre prot on a damage dealer, or even worst on a melee. Besides this sounds like Peace and Harmony with lower recharge and no effect against hexes with an added bonus of +health regeneration. Like mentioned below again,

I addressed that above; also the ability to punish predictable conditions would greatly increase the ability of the Assassin to split. How many times on split do you see that Elementalist clearly running right at you with his Blinding Surge cued up? It's painful, and with a skill like this, it will force the spamming of melee shutdown to be more methodical or it will create that window of opportunity for the Assassin to spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

In general you wish for no aftercast in shadow stepping unless you have crit strikes 4 and more. Meaning sins can go oldschool. I'm not really against that, haven't given it a lot of thought on it, but SP+BLS is a no-no. And lastly, most, if not all the attack skills you mentioned, being elite or not, have +30 to +50 damage. Not any melee class has so many +30> skills. Specially if you dual attack with a 5e 8r unblockable enchant striping +100 damage skill..

You must realize that the weapon you're using deals 7-17 damage compared to say, hammers which have 19-35; scythes dealing 9-41, swords 15-22, and axes 6-28. Most of the high damage attack skills on those weapons have a max of 35-50. The Assassin is a radically different class than Warriors or Dervishes which are frontline characters. The Assassin is not a frontline character. Their ability to deal high damage rests completely on not missing a single attack otherwise they deal no damage at all. They are much more prone to interrupts, disabled skills, block and blind than the other Melee classes. I feel having such high damage attacks are justifiable.

Regulus X · Sep 10, 2009, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Shadow Step without aftercast should only be alloted to Elite Shadowstepping [no regular shadowstepping spells without delaying]. Also, it should be geared so that only assassin primarys can use the elite shadowstep spells. Regular ones are alright as they only promote tactile movement/positioning, and is not exactly best for offense.

Also, reverting black lotus would be a viable change now that SP templates of old have been eviscerated by the nerf cleaver of death, so there's no longer any threat. Flurry [the only viable form of IAS for Assassins nowadays] would inhibit full spike potential in SPing as well, so spiking would be possible, yet counterable. I think Assassins should be able to step in, spike a good bit, then step right out. All the nerfs towards Assassins led to taking away this roll they once played.

...to be continued [tired... *yawns*]

M @ T · Sep 10, 2009, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

it is, dont worry :3

Great! I personally like it

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

That makes absolutely no sense, reread what you wrote.R/A's can't "spam" 1/2c dagger attacks if they are recharging - solved that problem real quick.

Indeed, but in the current meta they do and because of low recharge AND because of Expertise/blocking, it's as if they have entered a single-god-mode-thingy

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

Once again, SP sin was overpowered for a different reason. In a meta where Word Of Heal and Patient Spirit is as strong as it is, it is even less of a problem.

Well, indeed the SP sin won't have the same damage output as back in the day, but still;

+ : Lot's of damage in less than 2 secs, unblockable attacks, poison, bleeding, deep wound, snare

- : Recharge(not energy, no such thing as energy management on a spike sin)

Back in the LoD-Infuse, SoD era people still ahd problems with SP sins. Even with RC it was difficult. Ohm and patient spirit doesn't really work against an SP sin, he will kill before the enchantment is off and heals.

On the other hand that's what a sin is supposed to do.. Step in, hit, step out, but well it doesn't have to be so Bruce-Lee-kinda-style

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

I addressed that above; also the ability to punish predictable conditions would greatly increase the ability of the Assassin to split. How many times on split do you see that Elementalist clearly running right at you with his Blinding Surge cued up? It's painful, and with a skill like this, it will force the spamming of melee shutdown to be more methodical or it will create that window of opportunity for the Assassin to spike.

Well, take a look on the other melees, or if you prefer "physical attacking classes"(War, Derv, Ranger, Para) they don't have skills like that. Well the ranger does, but all use Mending Touch. You see, by making them expire 90% faster, it would only take 3 seconds for a 30 sec condition to be removed! So imagine that ALL conditions expire in a maximum of 3 seconds, which sound OP to me on a non monk class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

You must realize that the weapon you're using deals 7-17 damage compared to say, hammers which have 19-35; scythes dealing 9-41, swords 15-22, and axes 6-28. Most of the high damage attack skills on those weapons have a max of 35-50. The Assassin is a radically different class than Warriors or Dervishes which are frontline characters. The Assassin is not a frontline character.

Double Strike mate, double strike

. It makes 7-17 into 14-34 and besides it's the + damage that counts mostly. Warriors are DPS machines, Sins are all about spiking depending on the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

Their ability to deal high damage rests completely on not missing a single attack otherwise they deal no damage at all. They are much more prone to interrupts, disabled skills, block and blind than the other Melee classes. I feel having such high damage attacks are justifiable.

They are more prone in general because they can't execute their attack chains. That's it. They are as prone as any other melee class in general though. Blind does the same harm on a Para, Sin, War, Ranger(well Mending touch but meh) and Derv, because a War and Para can't build on adrenaline, Rangers have Mending Touch and Dervs will waste their energy.

LegendaryBattousai · Sep 10, 2009, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

Great! I personally like it

+ : Lot's of damage in less than 2 secs, unblockable attacks, poison, bleeding, deep wound, snare

The conditions themselves aren't that overpowering; Shadow Prison should have a snare duration like 2...5..6 so it is only used to keep the target there long enough to start your combo; not as something to use as a snare. I don't see where you're getting the unblockable attacks from though, assuming we're talking about the same bar.

A huge con you're missing on that bar is having absolutely no defense or damage mitigation after your spike, while having 70 armor and are in melee range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

Back in the LoD-Infuse, SoD era people still ahd problems with SP sins. Even with RC it was difficult. Ohm and patient spirit doesn't really work against an SP sin, he will kill before the enchantment is off and heals.

You're blowing it way out of proportion. SP Sins were never a problem for LoD-Infuse / SoD backline by itself. It was when you had an entire team under pressure from hexes and a dervish that you could sneak kills in within 6 seconds.

The old SP sin bar took approximately 6 seconds for a kill, including a last hit to trigger deep wound.

Current bars now can kill in 5 seconds, have more knockdowns, quarterknocks and more damage; but it doesn't mean they are overpowering, at all; they aren't run in the current GvG meta because why run that when you could run a mind blast or something that doesn't die in two seconds in an 8v8. Theres no reason to split, as its much easier to counter-split and snare. Besides that, it now requires more skills in order to do this, and more energy.

Patient will trigger before a spike is finished and WoH will almost completely heal it if caught at any time, which is why you can't instant kill anything now (besides the fact that everyone uses defensive skills, like stances)

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

Well, take a look on the other melees, or if you prefer "physical attacking classes"(War, Derv, Ranger, Para) they don't have skills like that. Well the ranger does, but all use Mending Touch. You see, by making them expire 90% faster, it would only take 3 seconds for a 30 sec condition to be removed! So imagine that ALL conditions expire in a maximum of 3 seconds, which sound OP to me on a non monk class.

The idea behind it is that it lasts for 4 seconds (say 5 for your enchant mod). You can't cast it on other allies like you can a monk skill. Dervishes have two skills which are very similar in concept to this; Avatar of Melandru (which is 100% but elite), Featherfoot Grace (50% but lasts for 20 seconds and outlasts its recharge). Also its important to note that conditions don't expire in a maximum of 3 seconds; conditions applied before or after the cast of this skill will not be effected. Only conditions applied while this enchantment is up will be reduced in duration. Thats how it encourages the one with conditions to not cue their skills and actually be methodical about their application conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

Double Strike mate, double strike

. It makes 7-17 into 14-34 and besides it's the + damage that counts mostly. Warriors are DPS machines, Sins are all about spiking depending on the build.

14-34 is only during a double strike. Not all attacks are double strike. The low points make up for the high.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

They are more prone in general because they can't execute their attack chains. That's it. They are as prone as any other melee class in general though. Blind does the same harm on a Para, Sin, War, Ranger(well Mending touch but meh) and Derv, because a War and Para can't build on adrenaline, Rangers have Mending Touch and Dervs will waste their energy.

They are more prone because having it happen during a spike will result in a more dramatic drop in damage. You miss one skill on a Warrior, you probably still hit Eviscerate for Deep Wound and +Damage. You miss on an Assassin you probably hit a Lead Attack or Offhand- cutting you off before you reach your Dual Attack.

M @ T · Sep 10, 2009, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

The conditions themselves aren't that overpowering; Shadow Prison should have a snare duration like 2...5..6 so it is only used to keep the target there long enough to start your combo; not as something to use as a snare. I don't see where you're getting the unblockable attacks from though, assuming we're talking about the same bar.

I didn't clarify on that. I meant that the target is also hexed which means a sin can also use 2 off hand and 2 dual attacks which have + damage(x2 because of double striking), KD and conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

A huge con you're missing on that bar is having absolutely no defense or damage mitigation after your spike, while having 70 armor and are in melee range.

Well neither does a war or derv. They use attack and utility skills, much like the classic Shock Axe. Sins do have less armor than a War but the same as a Derv for instance but they also have 4 pips of energy and they spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

You're blowing it way out of proportion. SP Sins were never a problem for LoD-Infuse / SoD backline by itself. It was when you had an entire team under pressure from hexes and a dervish that you could sneak kills in within 6 seconds.

You mean the old Grenth Dervish? Even so I clarified what IMO was so OP on a SP sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

The old SP sin bar took approximately 6 seconds for a kill, including a last hit to trigger deep wound.

I don't think it was 6 seconds, BOA helped a sin complete the attack chain in 2 seconds or so. Unless you cound the casting time of Expose Defences too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

Current bars now can kill in 5 seconds, have more knockdowns, quarterknocks and more damage; but it doesn't mean they are overpowering, at all; they aren't run in the current GvG meta because why run that when you could run a mind blast or something that doesn't die in two seconds in an 8v8. Theres no reason to split, as its much easier to counter-split and snare. Besides that, it now requires more skills in order to do this, and more energy.

Indeed, but you can see Palm Strike Sin for instance coming a mile away and he has to meet some prerequisites for the 2nd KD. And don't get me started on the MB Ele lol. I couldn't agree more! The MB/Distortion can DPS like hell, have infinite energy, almost constant blocking, self healing, KD and spike

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

Patient will trigger before a spike is finished and WoH will almost completely heal it if caught at any time, which is why you can't instant kill anything now (besides the fact that everyone uses defensive skills, like stances)

Well when a SP sin can bring a target down to lets say 33% health, all you need is another damage dealer to finish him off without even trying. Stances on the other hand are meh, but Expose Defences works(I'm talking about the SP sin here only).

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

The idea behind it is that it lasts for 4 seconds (say 5 for your enchant mod). You can't cast it on other allies like you can a monk skill.

I didn't think about that actually.. But still,

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

Dervishes have two skills which are very similar in concept to this; Avatar of Melandru (which is 100% but elite), Featherfoot Grace (50% but lasts for 20 seconds and outlasts its recharge).

Indeed, but AoM is an elite like you said with erm 3 seconds to cast or so? Featherfoot Grace makes all conditions last 50% shorter and it costs 10 energy if I'm not mistaken as well. But yes, you got a point there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

Also its important to note that conditions don't expire in a maximum of 3 seconds; conditions applied before or after the cast of this skill will not be effected. Only conditions applied while this enchantment is up will be reduced in duration. Thats how it encourages the one with conditions to not cue their skills and actually be methodical about their application conditions.

This makes sense indeed, but I think that the GW logic doesn't work that way. For instance Illusion of Haste can be chained repeatedly to remove cripple, much like in Featherfoot Grace I think. The same would apply with your suggestion I suppose. Your logic is fine, but i don't think it can be implemented

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

14-34 is only during a double strike. Not all attacks are double strike. The low points make up for the high.

Yes indeed but a sin is an expert on double striking

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendaryBattousai

They are more prone because having it happen during a spike will result in a more dramatic drop in damage. You miss one skill on a Warrior, you probably still hit Eviscerate for Deep Wound and +Damage. You miss on an Assassin you probably hit a Lead Attack or Offhand- cutting you off before you reach your Dual Attack.

Ye, I agree, specially on a spike sin. But blind for instance works almost the same for all melees. Well if blind is removed the War can just hit away, while the spike Sin needs to wait for recharge, but thats the risk with a spike build. On the other hand, you do have Assassin's Remedy for a sin, but it's not always good enough and it depends on what you are running I suppose.

LegendaryBattousai · Sep 10, 2009, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

Well neither does a war or derv. They use attack and utility skills, much like the classic Shock Axe. Sins do have less armor than a War but the same as a Derv for instance but they also have 4 pips of energy and they spike.

Warriors have much higher armor and a cancel stance for their Frenzy if they use it. Dervishes aren't used anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

You mean the old Grenth Dervish? Even so I clarified what IMO was so OP on a SP sin.

http://www.gw-memorial.net/nav/b_mat_i.php?id=135

I was referencing RenO's build. It was extremely fun to play those sins; you could spike targets all day on sin and nothing would go through unless you had two hexers and a dervish hurting the monks. Once the monks are hurt and low on energy, you should be able to push kills through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

I don't think it was 6 seconds, BOA helped a sin complete the attack chain in 2 seconds or so. Unless you cound the casting time of Expose Defences too.

You're timing is way off. It was 6 seconds AFTER Shadow Prison. There is no way to land 4 (6) attacks in 2 seconds with a 33% IAS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

Well when a SP sin can bring a target down to lets say 33% health, all you need is another damage dealer to finish him off without even trying. Stances on the other hand are meh, but Expose Defences works(I'm talking about the SP sin here only).

Thats the case for almost every melee in the game. Expose is often removed and forecasts a spike easily, which made it not overpowered in my mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

Ye, I agree, specially on a spike sin. But blind for instance works almost the same for all melees. Well if blind is removed the War can just hit away, while the spike Sin needs to wait for recharge, but thats the risk with a spike build. On the other hand, you do have Assassin's Remedy for a sin, but it's not always good enough and it depends on what you are running I suppose.

Assassin's Remedy is not a practical solution for so many reasons. The biggest reason of which is you don't have enough bar compression to fit it.